(Read his comments to my post first and then this will make sense to you.)
It’s amazing to see how you make the mistake of assuming too much. You still have refused to engage in conversation but feel (key point) better to preach and even accuse unfamiliar situations.
You still haven’t bothered to ask for details of the conversation I had with the homosexual couple. You still haven’t asked what was the outcome of that conversation. You are great at quoting scripture but your idealistic viewpoint is blocking you from reality.
The rest of the story… the couple that talked with me that Sunday asked about acceptance. My response was that we love them and are happy to have them worship with us. (An act of grace.) I asked an important question though. “How much acceptance is enough”? What if we enjoy their company but disagree with their lifestyle? Can we worship together and disagree about sexual sin.”
Unfortunately they chose not to come back to church – at least I haven’t seen them recently.
I made the mistake of not looking more closely at the scripture you wield like a weapon of anger. Paul’s teaching in 1 Corinthians 5 is very clear. How can you so blatantly abuse that scripture for the profit of your own pride?
I was having fun with this discussion until now. Now I’m angry because it’s people like you who build walls around heaven working hard to keep people out like some childish country club.
It’s very convenient to skip over verse 9-12. “But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers” Paul says. He clearly clarifies your point Blake and yet you ignore that for what purpose?
(I have no hope of comfort from the homosexual community.) What does this comment say about your heart for people who need Jesus? But you are one of the “called” so what do you care?
(UNREPENTANT Pharisees?) Blake: I love the examples you use. They are mirrors for you to reflect in. I love that sermon Jesus gave to the religious leaders. Look again at Matthew 23:4-5 “They crush people with impossible religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden. Everything they do is for show.” Is he talking about you Blake? Clean on the outside but on the inside you are filthy. I prefer the people who are dirty on the outside and have a growing desire to be cleaned on the inside.
(Zacchaeus) Did he repent before or after Jesus invited himself over for dinner? Luke 19:10 says that Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Did Jesus die before or after you repented? Did Jesus come to seek and save those who already turned from the wicked ways?
You see God’s love only in terms of punishment? Are you missing the story of the cross? He took the punishment for me, you and homosexuals. You need to quit repeating old lessons taught to you from angry out of touch leaders. Think for yourself now. Read the whole text and apply it to real life and you’ll be surprise how big your God really is.
i couldn’t agree more…. that is why i love God so much – He first loved me even in my sin and weakness He sought me and wanted relationship with me.
its so heartbreaking, because people like Blake don’t realize it but they are the very reason “sinners” run as far away from church as they can get. And ultimately run away from Christ their Savior – they’ve been lied to by us (sinners ourselves). interesting.
By: Missy on July 9, 2008
at 7:12 pm
My response is to the ongoing tone of this discussion and not necessarily today’s comments:
To Blake and my fellow Beachsiders: Lets all be careful to remove the log from our own eyes before we worry about the speck in they eye of another. Many like me and apparently Blake studied the Bible and first came to know Jesus in legalistic denominations, breaking away from the law and really understanding grace and forgiveness is a hard thing to do for those so indoctrinated.
Let’s remember we are all part of the same body and working toward the same goals in Christ’s kingdom. Jesus gave us the great commandment and it is to LOVE, lets show Blake that love and light, as we smile at his youthful exuberance and passion. I have heard it said that Beachsiders are ”Screwed up People, helping Screwed up People”. So I guess he is one of us even if he has never attended our gatherings.
Blake my best advice to you is to clear your mind of all past conceptions and the interpretations you have been taught and read the Bible anew with a perspective of understanding the entire word, seeing what it is saying and teaching as a whole, rather than studying it in bits and pieces trying to prove denominational theology. This is not an easy thing to do but I think you will be refreshed. Blake thank you for sharing your sprited take on the subject, I love you and I hope you can join us in worship soon!
Glory to God All-Ways!
By: Mark on July 10, 2008
at 2:03 am
Mark,
Reading the Bible anew has been my goal and practice throughout my “teenage” years. I do not wish to discuss these things right now as they are off-topic, but I happen to believe that God is perfectly fine with polygamy. In the face of everything I’ve been taught from Society/Church/Parents/Teachers/Friends, I happen to believe that slavery is completely biblical. I grew up in an Arminian church, but I threw that away after I read Romans 9 and, subsequently, the entire word of God with an open heart. I am skeptical of eternal security in light of Hebrews. I deny Limited Atonement as a bunch of unbiblical, man-made garbage even though it’s accepted by the people I listen to. I believe God loves us 100% and hates us 100% but you’ll never hear that God hates you in Church (I guess Original Sin is too offensive now). I grew up in a Southern Baptist church that teaches that alchohol is sinful, yet I rejected that in light of Scripture. You don’t think I’ve read Rob Bell, Brian McClaren, and other Emergent Church types? Yea, I’m up to date on the latest winds blowing about. I’m not one to be naive and too apathetic to look into God’s Word. Most lies are pretty obvious when you read God’s Word. Robbie is much smarter and personable than me, but this argument can still hold up because it’s truth blatantly laid out in scripture.
Have I become legalistic? No! My deepest passion in life has truly become to know Christ. I love Him more than I ever have. Grace has become incredibly real to me. I have cast off artificial walls and run after the person of my affection. People may call me prideful all they want, but the only reason I say these things is because I love the Bride of Christ. I want her to be pure. I have no interest in setting up artificial rules and institutions, I want her heart. This counterfeit love and acceptance championed by modern “churches” is unbiblical and leads down the road of destruction. How could a loving God create a place like hell? He couldn’t; Hell was just made up. Claiming that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven is so arrogant! Oh, there are many ways to heaven – we’re all just on separate paths. Stop being so homophobic you hater! It’s ok to be homosexual – God loves you just as you are. Stop suppressing our women! We now accept women bishops. It’s all happening as we speak under the guise of humility, love, and acceptance. I’m telling you, it’s all a sham. Save yourself from this wicked generation.
By: Blake on July 10, 2008
at 4:11 am
Blake, I do not for a moment doubt your love of the lord or your comitment to biblical study and growth. Much of what you speak of in your first paragraph on your current theology may be closer to what Robbie beleves tha you would imagine. One of the problems in all of this discusion from my perspective is we are not diferentiating what it takes for salvation from personal beliefs and theology. I can’t speak for Robbie or Beachside. But if what you write below is what you think WE believe is an acceptable way to live and is the fruit of one that loves Jesus I say you are mistaken.
>>How could a loving God create a place like hell? He couldn’t’t; Hell was just made up. Claiming that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven is so arrogant! Oh, there are many ways to heaven – we’re all just on separate paths. Stop being so homophobic you hater! It’s OK to be homosexual – God loves you just as you are. Stop suppressing our women! We now accept women bishops. It’s all happening as we speak under the guise of humility, love, and acceptance. I’m telling you, it’s all a sham. Save yourself from this wicked generation.
“As a church we try to strip away the doctrine of the modern church and many scholars of the past 600 years and return to ding Church the way that Paul instructed us to without all that the denominations have added. We try to go by the bible, nothing more and nothing less. The word is clear that Hell is a real place, that women should not be in clergy that the only way to heaven is through Jesus, by his blood and the fathers grace, God does love a us as we are, but I believe it is our job to Love and Gods job to Judge. We are tying to save others from this wicked generation. We realize that by condemning the sinner and demanding that they follow law we will lead very few to the cross. If we love the sinner and encourage them to study Gods word it will open their heart to accept Jesus, they will grow in the spirit and they will then change and turn from their sinful nature because of their love for Jesus. In their walk they will fall, and get up and keep striving to please God just as Paul admitted to.
Can a person get to heaven if they openly and willfully continue to live a sinful life of homosexuality or any lust for that matter, a life filled with hate or envy, a life of lies, I do not know because I do not know their heart but God does. I do know that if they try to change just because it is the law because there are rules they must follow that they are doomed to failure. Works don’t work! But If one loves Jesus they will want to know him and will study his word, then they will change and turn from sin out of that love and in that case they will grow in their walk and succeed.
Do not confuse our love of the sinner with approval of the sin.
Blake let me ask you a simple question, that you have asked many others…
What do you believe it takes for a person to get to heaven?
By: Mark on July 10, 2008
at 9:24 am
Wow! This is all so interesting. I love Beachside and believe that God is using Robbie in a way that I have never seen in any other church. My mother is a 4th generation senior pastor of a church, and I was raised a “holy roller”. Everything was a “sin”. Couldn’t wear makeup, go to the movies, bowling, or skating. It was all about rules. They, the church, told us what we couldn’t do but never told us what we could do…which later in life, as an adult and reading the Bible for myself, I figured out that all I “had to do” was have an open heart and love God and try my best to find God’s will for my life & persue it. Sure I’ve made my mistakes along the way. My son’s dad divorced me and the church I had been a “member” of since I was a child turned me away. I could no longer be a part of their congregation when I needed them the most.
So being raised the way I was imagine my familys surprise when my brother, who is so talented, educated, and a wonderful person told us that he is a homosexual. Wow! What now? Everything I’ve been taught is to turn him away he is a sinner, reject him! NOT! I love him …I don’t believe the lifestyle he has chosen is right in God’s eyes but I am not his judge. I’ll leave that to God. I’ve always said hate the sin not the sinner. No, I don’t believe we should “lower our standards” as some people have said in their post, but if we aren’t a safe haven for sinners and people in need how will they ever have a chance to find true freedom from whatever they may be facing. By the way…my brother was visiting from South Florida and was in service with us just a few Sundays ago. He loved it and was so glad that his little sister & her family has found a place where we feel accepted and are being “taught” the word of God so we can apply it to our daily lives. Not Preached at and given a list of rules and regulations! As far as the other comments on this subject..I personally don’t feel like breaking away from the legalism of the church, like the one I grew up in, is hard it’s the most freedom you’ll ever experience. It’s your chance to experience God for yourself and not have someone else telling you what God can & can not do for you!
By: Mk on July 11, 2008
at 2:44 am
I also love [constructive] dissent. Iron sharpens iron; That’s not going to happen if we’re too nice or easily offended. Discussions like this help clarify our standings (mostly to ourselves) and may even change them, since they’re under fire. So please attack me and my views and I’ll continue to attack you and your views and we’ll come out different.
The assumption I made was that the homosexuals you spoke of are unrepentant. Homosexuality is their identity – it is their lifestyle. It is not a sin that they reject, but one they have embraced as a part of who they are. I assumed they were asking for you to accept their right to accept homosexuality as their lifestyle _while at the same time_ be a part of the church. I don’t think that was too much of a jump.
>> You are great at quoting scripture but your idealistic viewpoint is blocking you from reality.
Scripture is closer to reality than either of our viewpoints so let’s both make an effort to found our arguments more on scripture and less on opinion. I would like your interpretation and application (give atleast 1 modern example of when this expulsion would apply) of 1 Corinthians 5 as well as the other scripture in this post.
Your question, “How much acceptance is enough?”, blankets over 2 types of sinners that MUST be treated differently. This is the heart of the issue.
There are 2 types of sinners: Repentant and Unrepentant.
How much acceptance should we show towards repentant sinners? Unlimited.
“Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times? Jesus answered, ‘I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.’” We are all wicked sinners saved by Grace. We screw up – it’s the story of the Church – but like Steve Brown has said: “When a dog plays chess you don’t criticize his game; you’re just pleased and surprised that he’s playing at all.” We acknowledge our mistakes and repent – it’s a continual thing. I think we agree on this.
How much acceptance should we show towards unrepentant sinners? None.
“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault…If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along…If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”
“If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?”
Does that make you tremble? This is a different breed of sinner. They trample your Savior under foot. They treat the blood of Christ as menstrual blood. They are counted as enemies of God. They profane your God in the deepest manner possible. So please, “hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.”
There IS a difference between these 2 sinners and they must be treated differently.
>> “But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers” Paul says. He clearly clarifies your point Blake and yet you ignore that for what purpose?
I’m not ignoring it; It’s just not relevant to the conversation. The people in question said “We want to worship here”. Why would you worship what you reject? They clearly believe they’re Christians. Paul’s judgement was made on “anyone who calls himself a brother”.
>> (I have no hope of comfort from the homosexual community.) What does this comment say about your heart for people who need Jesus?
It says nothing of “my heart for people who need Jesus.” It says that if I stand by Truth and walk in the Light I should expect to be hated by the world. Is that wrong? “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.”
>> I prefer the people who are dirty on the outside and have a growing desire to be cleaned on the inside.
Amen.
>> (Zacchaeus) Did he repent before or after Jesus invited himself over for dinner? Luke 19:10 says that Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Did Jesus die before or after you repented? Did Jesus come to seek and save those who already turned from the wicked ways?
You missed the point. I’m not trying to say that Jesus loved Zacchaeus and not the Pharisee, or that Zacchaeus was not a wicked sinner like the Pharisee. Christ died for us while we were yet sinners. The point is that he interacted differently with them based on their attitude towards Him. The heart of it is that He didn’t try to woo over the Pharisees with kind words, but opposed them. “God opposes the proud.” With those who are humbled and acknowledge their sin, like Zacchaeus, He shows grace and acceptance.
You may have a problem child you’re constantly spanking and an obedient child you’re constantly rewarding, but does that mean you love one child more than the other? No. But there is a different interaction between you and that problem child than between you and that obedient child. That’s Jesus’ method. Using the same analogy, your method would be the equivalent of showering gifts upon the obedient child AND the problem child because, in your mind, you’ve connected the attitude towards the child with your love for the child.
Unrepentant people who claim to be Christians need to be “handed over to Satan” to drive them back to Christ since they’ve taken for granted the grace of Christ. When the problem child takes what you do for him for granted, the solution isn’t to do more things for him (he’ll just take those for granted) but to start taking things away from him. To give a rebellious, unrepentant kid candy is unloving. A loving parent withholds the candy and disciplines the kid. LAW TO THE PROUD, GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.
“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
“For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
By: Blake on July 14, 2008
at 4:59 pm
Blake, the moment you became a christian was all truth absolutely revealed to you?
In my experience it was not. My God was a complete gentleman, gently guiding me to the light, not flooding me with absolute light blinding me in the process. This I think is where your youth may be showing. Because I have been on this journey for awhile, the things I thought were truth in the beginning turned out to be lies, and the thing that I thought were lies were in reality truth, but it was only through growth and maturity and earnestly seeking God that He revealed truth to me (and he continues to reveal it!). So my question to you is why don’t we let those Christians who may be believing a lie, whatever it may be (which would be the majority of us!) seek after God instead of harboring judgment. The Holy Spirit lives in those who have accepted Him and it is this same Holy Spirit that reveals truth when it is time. Be patient with those who are not on “your level” yet. And also humble yourself to acknowledge that no one has it all figured out but God alone. And His grace is a beautiful and amazing thing! “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.” If we all truly search for truth, in His time he will reveal it!
By: Christie on July 15, 2008
at 1:10 pm
Blake,
Again so much information to deal with and so little space.
A great modern day interpretation of 1 Corinthians 5 is found in the scripture you quoted here… (Why don’t you ever include the references? The context vital.)
“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault…If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along…If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”
The text is Matthew 18:15-20. There is a grace filled exchange built on relationships. It often sounds like you are excited to seek out sin and with vengeance expel the person; especially if it is a sexual sin you don’t struggle with yourself. If you don’t intend that ask yourself why it’s so often perceived that way.
Again a great paradox: You used a scripture to justify legalistic judgment yet consider the scripture previous to 18:15-20. Jesus talks about the parable of the lost sheep. The good shepherd leaves the 99 who are safe and goes to hunt after and rescue the 1 that is lost. It speaks to his heart and mission.
Consider your quote (from Luke 19:10) “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
It sounds to me that Jesus is passionate about helping to rescue the lost. You sound passionate about expelling the lost. So the bottom line for me…
If an unrepentant homosexual wants to join us for worship in an effort to explore their faith – I will show grace to them. It’s not my job to change their hearts but it is my job to give them the opportunity. Blake – you sound like you prefer to refuse them the opportunity to repent. Or do they have to do it at the door before they come it? I get the privilege of watching many people enter for “church” and leave with an experience with their savior – all because Jesus was willing to forgive.
I will refuse anyone with open, unrepentant sin the opportunity to lead ministry in the name of the Beachside Church. I chose to follow the example left in Matthew 18. But if I ever err it will be on the side of grace.
I would like your interpretation and application (give at least 1 modern example of when this expulsion would apply) of 1 Corinthians 5 as well as the other scripture in this post.
There are 2 types of sinners: Repentant and Unrepentant.
How much acceptance should we show towards repentant sinners? Unlimited.
How much acceptance should we show towards unrepentant sinners? None.
I’m not ignoring it; It’s just not relevant to the conversation. The people in question said “We want to worship here”. Why would you worship what you reject? They clearly believe they’re Christians. Paul’s judgement was made on “
You may have a problem child you’re constantly spanking and an obedient child you’re constantly rewarding, but does that mean you love one child more than the other? No. But there is a different interaction between you and that problem child than between you and that obedient child. That’s Jesus’ method. Using the same analogy, your method would be the equivalent of showering gifts upon the obedient child AND the problem child because, in your mind, you’ve connected the attitude towards the child with your love for the child.
“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
By: robbie on July 23, 2008
at 8:49 pm
I’m going to be direct because I want to bring this discussion to a crux…
You have not interpreted 1 Corinthians 5. Not one word in the last post was from 1 Corinthians 5. You will not and cannot give an application and modern-day example of the judgement Paul gave in 1 Corinthians 5. You will not judge as the Apostle Paul judged because it conflicts with your view of grace. Don’t be afraid of the text, boldly present the correct interpretation of _1 Corinthians 5_, the correct application, and atleast 1 modern-day example of when the Apostle Paul’s judgement applies. Why avoid it? Hit it head on and present TRUTH. Stop allowing me to misinterpret it. Tell us what Paul truly meant when he said, “put out of your fellowship the man who did this”. We’re all tired of my lies, present the truth of 1 Corinthians 5.
By: Blake on July 26, 2008
at 12:09 pm
I may not have been clear enough so I’ll clarify my answer. I wrote previously, “I will refuse anyone with open, unrepentant sin the opportunity to lead ministry in the name of the Beachside Church. I chose to follow the example left in Matthew 18. But if I ever err it will be on the side of grace.”
An example:
Several years ago I was a youth minister leading an all night youth event. Apparently some tension developed between a few girls throughout the night. About 30 minutes before the event ended a girl (long time member and core kid) ran across the room in front of everyone and violently slapped another girl (a first time visitor).
For the sake of repentance and the reputation of the church I asked her to take a few weeks off.
The scripture says “expel” and my reaction was to suspend her from our midst – but I think it is a good example. (And not the only one I could use.)
I agree wholeheartedly with a lifestyle and ministry that purses holiness. But following Jesus example we must help people come to repentance.
What I disagree most with Blake is his vocabulary. We haven’t talked face to face but it seems he is angry in his approach and does more to keep people from repentance than help them find it.
By the way, Blake. You have not addressed the issue of context that I presented earlier. Matthew 18 sets the tone for this and you continue to ignore it.
If Jesus’ mission is to seek and to save the lost why isn’t yours? If you say that it is give examples of what that looks like to you.
By: robbie on July 26, 2008
at 2:23 pm
Where in 1 Corinthians 5 does it talk of the unrepentant sinner being in leadership? I would like to know your interpretation of 1 Cor. 5. Give me a summary of 1 Cor. 5. What happened there?
Your example was great. I’m so sorry for what happened. That kind of stuff breaks my heart.
I’ve got a bad memory but I’ll try to give an example from my childhood. There were times when I did rebellious things and my dad would punish me. He would say something like “Blake, go to your room and think about what you did. You can come out when you’re ready to say you’re sorry.” I would then plead with him to change his mind – he wouldn’t. Once I was in my room I would throw a fit and after a good 5 minutes or so I’d ask him if I could come out. He knew I was insincere so he would say no. Then I’d show my true colors and throw the biggest fit – screaming, crying, pleading, angry with my dad. It would go on for the longest time. Eventually, it would break my stubborn pride and I would come out and say I was sorry. “You’re sorry for what?” I’m sorry that I did such and such. Immediately he would welcome me with a smile and my joy would rush back. The tears would go away and I would smile in return.
Now that I look back, what my dad did was incredibly biblical. I love that he disciplined me. I don’t think he took pleasure in expelling me just like I don’t think parents take pleasure in hitting (aka. spanking) their children. They take pleasure in the results. This example is more geared towards family but the same applies to the Church.
1 Corinthians 5 is a judgement on “anyone who calls himself a brother.” Regarding the lost, the method is law to the proud, grace to the humble (already gave examples).
The reason I sound angry is because I am. Do you ever get pissed off when you see parents with rebellious children not disciplining them? How about when people lash out against the idea of parents spanking their children? As a pastor I’m sure you sometimes get pissed as you see the PCUSA, Anglican, and other churches become more and more unbiblical and fluffy all in the name of love and grace. Some things are worth getting angry about.
By: Blake on July 26, 2008
at 5:06 pm
I’m sorry, I crossed a line in my last post by mentioning spanking. That sounds more like punishing a child for what they did than breaking a rebellious heart. I’m not suggesting the Church should somehow punish people for sin; We have an imputed righteousness.
By: Blake on July 27, 2008
at 3:25 pm
I’m all about righteous anger. I just don’t want to cross the line and let my anger be the reason someone walks away from Jesus. Too many Christians are guilty of that.
By: beachsideguy on July 28, 2008
at 2:28 pm
Robbie, could I please have your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 5? I’d like to know what went on there – could you summarize it?
By: Blake on July 30, 2008
at 3:09 pm
[...] – bookmarked by 5 members originally found by FireFox19p2 on 2008-12-24 more conversation with Blake http://beachsideguy.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/more-conversation-with-blake/ – bookmarked by 1 [...]
By: Bookmarks about Examples on January 14, 2009
at 11:45 pm